the_historian
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 | | 05 Jun 2004 04:33 PM | | I've been doing research on ships sunk around Scotland in the two world wars. This includes ships lost to accident, weather etc, as well as enemy action.
I don't dive, but I can see the attraction of exploring wrecks, and there are some great books on the subject (like Shipwrecks of the Forth by Bob Baird).
Has anyone else done research on this, or warships sunk in earlier centuries?
Yours in History,
Gordon | | | |
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the_historian
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mary
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| | 05 Jun 2004 08:35 PM | | | I had a really interesting lecture on the hunley - the first submarine to sink a ship in battle. it was a confederate ship and was found in 1995, raised in 2000 and they buried the remains of the crew this year.
I've also looked into evidence of some much earlier warships like biremes and triremes in the mediterranean but the conditions mean that nothing survives.
Mary | | | |
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the_historian
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| | 05 Jun 2004 11:49 PM | | | Hi Mary,
Nice to meet you!
Sounds like an interesting lecture-I've seen various articles on the Hunley recently, quite a story.
Did you see the programme on tv a few months ago, when they excavated an Italian harbour which dated back to Roman times, and found the remains of a sailor and his dog who had died in a storm, still lying beside the wreck of the ship? Think it was Horizon, but don't quote me.
There are supposed to be around 45,000 known wrecks off the British coast-any idea how many survive in the Mediterranean?
Yours in History,
Gordon | | | |
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mary
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| | 05 Aug 2004 11:44 AM | | | I've been doing a unit on archaeology of the sea this year, and the mediterranean seems to have far fewer wrecks - there's some type of worm that eats the wood so they just don't survive. My particular interest is the bronze age and the only wrecks are trading ships like the Uluburun and the Cape Gelidonia where the cargo shows the shape and size of the ship, and sometimes preserves some of the hull by pressing it into the sand away from the worms. so the only evidence for warships comes from the iconography as they didn't have any cargo to preserve them.
Records from the classical period state that in the battle of Salamis (480bc) hundreds of persian warships were sunk but not even a tiny bit of any of these wrecks have been found. so i'd think that there are far less wrecks that survive in the Mediterranean than around Britain.
Mary | | | |
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the_historian
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| | 05 Oct 2004 02:47 PM | | | Mary,
Thanks for that info. Sounds like a really interesting course you did.
Suppose there's probably more metal ships from the 20th century in the Med, than wooden ones from the Bronze age.
Yours in History,
Gordon | | | |
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the_historian
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| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | | Does anyone have access to Admiralty maps of the British Isles, preferably pre-1950?
Reason is I would like to check the accuracy of data I have regarding shipping losses in the two world wars, and if anyone knows a good source of the electronic Raster version of these maps, so much the better! My paper records are starting to take over the bedroom, so the quicker I can build an electronic map of it all, the better.
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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Stevin
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Posts:3
| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | Hi Gordon!
Thanks for pointing me to this site (and Steve for activating my account! )
Sorry to say I have no idea where to get those maps. I have some North Africa Luftwaffe maps if that will help.
But to go OT, I wonder if any of you are familiar with www.divetheworld.com . A group of divers that also dive on WW2 plane wrecks in the Med. Their site has some amazing pics and footage. Very interesting for the WW2 underwater archeology buff.
Stevin | | | |
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SteveW
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the_historian
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| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | Stevin,
My pleasure mate! Glad to see you. 
That's a nice site, btw. It was a shipwreck book intended for divers which originally got me into studying them.
As a complete aside, I think the Greenland now lies in British territorial waters. They were extended to 12 miles in 1987.
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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Stevin
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Posts:3
| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | Thanks Steve! Appreciate the welcome. I hope I will be able to add some relevant posts in the future.
Hello Gordon! I am afraid that the 12 mile inclusion zone (that is what it is called, right?) doesn't mean the Greenland will be raised though? Would be interesting to dive on that ship, even with the little knowledge I have about it. I have written the dive the world guys in the past as they seem to dive off Corisca a lot. On the North East side of the island the NJL Kreta was sunk by a British sub. It was actually the world's first radar ship, NJL stands for NachtJagdLeitSchiffe. The ship provided seaborne early radar for luftwaffe planes (nightfighters). When the Kreta was sunk, the NJL Togo was put into commission in the Baltic. The ship survived the war, had a rich and fulfilling life and was shipwrecked off the Mexican coast (I believe) in the 70's. All my info was lost in a pc crash late last year. Will start collecting that data sometime. Ask Erich about it   . I got a book, written and self published by the Captain of the TOGO, about the ship and its wartime career. Actually corresponded with his son and a TOGO shipsmate in the past. It was an amazing ship. Anyway, would be a great project for a underwater archeology project. | | | |
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the_historian
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Posts:1825
| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | Hi Stevin,
I doubt if the British government would raise it, but isn't it a war grave anyway? Still make an interesting project for a private company.
Thanks for the info on the Kreta, didn't know that. See this issue of After the Battle has a feature on a J-52 which was raised from the seabed near Crete (I think). Wonder how much more lies in that area waiting to be dicovered?
Good work on the Togo, sounds like a great article . Seriously, I also lost years of research on WW2 in Scotland when another PC I had crashed years ago. Being new to them, I didn't have any files backed up, and had to start again from scratch. Took me months!
Never made that mistake again.....
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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the_historian
Veteran Member
Posts:1825
| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | | Just chancing my arm here...
Anyone happen to have a copy of the Larne and Larne vol of Shipwreck Index of the British Isles which covers Scotland? Think it's vol. 5
Anyway, if there's any chance I could borrow it temporarily, I'd be willing to pay any postage costs involved of course.
Cheers in anticipation.
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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the_historian
Veteran Member
Posts:1825
| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | | I just finished some research on British POW camps 1914-18, and someone told me there were also nine prison ships around the British coast in this period. I know there were 3 off kent, does anyone have any more information on the rest?
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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SteveW
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the_historian
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| | 25 Apr 2008 09:00 PM | | | Steve,
Cheers-it's a start!
Regards,
Gordon | | | |
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the_historian
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Posts:1825
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